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can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?
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Author:  SolR [ Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

Is this possible, ?

I have an archtop floating bridge with bone saddle... =the high E is perfect but the low E/A/D are still a tad high.

I'd get an adjustable bridge if I could find one that fits but the minimum height has to be lower than 3/4 " . All the one s I see online are at least 7/8 or 15/16.....

S

Author:  Barry Daniels [ Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

Yes, one can. I do it all the time starting with a disk sander and then following up with a level surface with sandpaper attached and holding the saddle by hand. You might want to draw a line one the saddle first to have something to guide you.

Author:  Pmaj7 [ Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

Side to side (b2t)? Yes, that is how we adjust the action.

Pat

Author:  SolR [ Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

Thx for the replies, was looking at this nifty tool from stewmac




S

Author:  fumblefinger [ Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

But buy one from ebay, not SM.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/313637041764?h ... R9aS2I3bYQ

Author:  Hesh [ Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

Not sure I understand the question. Saddles are sanded free hand on belt sanders as a matter of course for those of us who repair guitars. I do it daily.

A picture would help and always does on this forum, thanks.

Regarding the tool it would be a time waster for us we do it freehand and that's not difficult to do.

Author:  Pmaj7 [ Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

I have the Chinut & saddle version. I bought it to take on the road when I didn't have my disc Sander. I only tried it a couple times and it does work well, although it does take a little finesse or things can go wrong. I don't think it's a quality issue, just the design of the thing.

Pat

Author:  SolR [ Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

fumblefinger wrote:


Thx

Stewmac's version is discontinued ......the Ebay ones, which one did you get? , these all look the same chinese knockoff from same shipping...how's the quality ?

S

Author:  SolR [ Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

[img]Screen%20Shot%202023-03-13%20at%2010.53.23[/img]
Hesh wrote:
Not sure I understand the question. Saddles are sanded free hand on belt sanders as a matter of course for those of us who repair guitars. I do it daily.

A picture would help and always does on this forum, thanks.

Regarding the tool it would be a time waster for us we do it freehand and that's not difficult to do.


Thank you for your reply, I'm not a luthier but am learning....

I have a guitar with an unusual bridge (well for me it's different from what I've seen in the past) I've been to the luthier a few times to get the saddle trimmed in order to lower my action....Hi E is perfect I just want to lower the low E side as it's still too high, freehand for me is no go ,the slightest mistake and I'll need a new saddle (compensated and trimmed ietc..s 75$cdn ) so I'd like to get a few blanks/pre cut ones of the right dimensions and do them myself . I don't have any belt sander or a shop/garage etc.....From the info available ,the nut/saddle tool would allow me to carefully and precisely shave off the excess while keeping the bottom of the saddle straight for an optimum fit in the bridge....

Ideally I'd change the bridge for an adjustable one but can't find anything that has a minimum height from the top of less than 3/4" , most are around 15/16 or an inch....



S

Author:  Hesh [ Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

Thanks S I think I understand now. This is no different than any other saddle unless you mean to say it has a back tilt too which some builders do. None the less even with a back tilt the saddle bottom is still 90 degrees to the side because that's how a slot is milled.

So it's a conventional, compensated saddle with differing heights treble to bass sides.

With this said we measure and mark, I use a very thin pencil and we drop action (or raise it) around 1/64th" at the 12th fret for every doubling of that, 1/32nd" inch we raise or lower the saddle at it's bottom.

Now I know you are more concerned about keeping things straight up and down on the sander, correct? If that's the case you can practice milling saddles with wood blanks, scrap bone, counter top scraps, lots of materials.

I've milled thousands of saddles my fingertips show it and the FBI would not like my prints :). A commercial shop would likely not use a tool like this because it's unnecessary we simply go slower, check progress frequently and it works out. Practice though, no harm in practicing.

Author:  fumblefinger [ Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

The biggest reason I use the tool is to keep the base of the saddle or nut perpendicular to the side. Guess my old hands aren't as competent as others.
Other than that, I generally shape the top with hand files.

Author:  SolR [ Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

Hesh wrote:

So it's a conventional, compensated saddle with differing heights treble to bass sides.

With this said we measure and mark, I use a very thin pencil and we drop action (or raise it) around 1/64th" at the 12th fret for every doubling of that, 1/32nd" inch we raise or lower the saddle at it's bottom.

Now I know you are more concerned about keeping things straight up and down on the sander, correct? If that's the case you can practice milling saddles with wood blanks, scrap bone, counter top scraps, lots of materials.
.


Yep.....keeping the bottom straight is indeed my concern....If I take off anymore on the treble I'm out of a usable nut .it would be too low ....

I have an old saddle I can try.....

Thx Hesh, ...

Sol

Author:  Hesh [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

Sol here is how I professionally manage the relationships between the nut, the neck and relief and the saddle.

The first thing I do when setting up guitars and I just finished three of them is to set the relief (truss rod). Once I like the neck shape I cut the nut slots and that's an art where experience greatly benefits one. The last thing I do it take material off the saddle (or raise it with a new saddle or shims).

So the pint here is I never even look at what I have to do to the saddle until the relief is set and nut slots are cut properly. This way you never have to back track to these things again they can be correctly set in isolation from the saddle.

Now keeping the saddle perfectly flat on the bottom is important and good on ya for being keen to do just this. Consider using something very flat in your shop (surface plate, leveling beam, table saw table) with 220 sand paper stuck to it to sand the saddle bottom for straightness. I use a belt sander, Dan Earlywine's Dad's belt sander to be more precise we have it in our shop. I use the belt sander to hog away material on the saddle bottom and then I clean it up on a flat surface making pencil marks and sanding until they are ll gone.

Hope some of this helps Sol.

Author:  SolR [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

Hesh wrote:
Sol here is how I professionally manage the relationships between the nut, the neck and relief and the saddle.

The first thing I do when setting up guitars and I just finished three of them is to set the relief (truss rod). Once I like the neck shape I cut the nut slots and that's an art where experience greatly benefits one. The last thing I do it take material off the saddle (or raise it with a new saddle or shims).

So the pint here is I never even look at what I have to do to the saddle until the relief is set and nut slots are cut properly. This way you never have to back track to these things again they can be correctly set in isolation from the saddle.

Now keeping the saddle perfectly flat on the bottom is important and good on ya for being keen to do just this. Consider using something very flat in your shop (surface plate, leveling beam, table saw table) with 220 sand paper stuck to it to sand the saddle bottom for straightness. I use a belt sander, Dan Earlywine's Dad's belt sander to be more precise we have it in our shop. I use the belt sander to hog away material on the saddle bottom and then I clean it up on a flat surface making pencil marks and sanding until they are ll gone.

Hope some of this helps Sol.


Thanks again Hesh, neck relief and nut are already done ....it got a re fret and neck levelling etc....

I just need a lower action on low E....I've had my luthier trim off the low E side twice already...I have a very soft playing jazz style and most luthier around here do rock or folk , i.e stronger strummers and they're cautious when they trim .He measured 1.5/64" on hi E and 3.5/64 on lo E...

Now I've read that break angle could be an issue :o

here's what this looks like from the lo E view..

S

Author:  Pmaj7 [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

Wow, that is unbelievably low action! Is that measured at the 12th fret with open strings?

Is that the current action or your target action?

Pat

Author:  SolR [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

Pmaj7 wrote:
Wow, that is unbelievably low action! Is that measured at the 12th fret with open strings?

Is that the current action or your target action?

Pat


That's 12th fret thumbing on first....but I'm not 100% sure about that, I think I saw him do that when he measured the last time.....I compare it with my other guitars.I can't slip a thin pick under 3nd fret on others , this one a medium .73 fits easy.... .013 to .052 jazz swing TI flatwounds strings .

S

Author:  SolR [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

I just shave off a bit , seems ok......

I drew a line on the side of the saddle half of my estimated 12th fret (I know, rather low tech here) but I really did not want to shave off too much....

Thx everyone

S

The whole guitar....:

Author:  SolR [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

From an older thread, where I Finally found the inspiration to go low.....

Chris Pile wrote:
Hey, Dave.... This is only done for my most sensitive clients, guys with the absolute lightest touch. Mostly fingerstyle guys, but I have done it on electrics, too.... I have one for sale if you want it...

I do it the hard way on new guitars.... I grind the frets down to the correct height of .025, which sometimes takes DAYS if it had medium jumbos (I'm a part timer, ya know). What takes forever is crowning the frets which have now been flattened out considerably.

I use a StewMac 3 cornered file, a couple reworked Swiss die sinker files, a StewMac sanding stick, and one of those stainless StewMac fingerboard guards. I radius first from the bass side, then turn the guitar around and radius it across the fret from the treble side. Then I use 3 different grits of sandpaper to blend it all together. As you well know, with a fingerboard guard which measures .010 thick, or blue masking tape (about .007 thick), that doesn't leave much room at all to produce a full radius when crowning. I seldom achieve a perfectly round fret crown, but it's pretty close.

Frankly, it's a cast iron b*tch to do, which is why I charge triple to do it. It uses up a lot of tool and supplies, a bunch of my epidermis and even part of my fingernails. My fingers hurt for a day or two after I'm done.

And then I string up the guitar to pitch, and leave it for a day to settle. For setup, I adjust the truss rod almost perfectly straight, and check it several times over a few hours until it has settled. As you know, the lower the action - the less wiggle room for mistakes. When I'm finally satisfied, then I capo it at the first fret and lower the bridge saddle as low as possible. I'm looking for stoopid low. I might have to shim it, but usually I can get it a taste lower even then. Then I pull the capo, and set the action at the nut - again stoopid low. And then, I let the guitar sit at tension for a couple hours and I check it periodically. IF the guitar needs it, I'll adjust the truss rod a smidge - and I mean barely. At around the 10th fret you MIGHT be able to slip a piece of folded paper (.008) between the treble E and the fret when the string is held at the first fret and last fret. Triple fold on the bass E (.012).

You want to know what stoopid low is, right? On the plain strings there's about .005 between the bottom of the string and the top of the first fret. About .012 on the wound strings, with maybe .015 on the E. At the bridge, the treble E is about .035 with each string getting a little more gap until the low E is about .055. Most cats can't even play it now without making it rattle - including yours truly. One of these guys can play SLIDE with it that low, and you'll never hear the slide hit the frets. He's a spook.

On used guitars, I pull the old frets, sand the fingerboard perfectly flat. I refret with the tiniest mandolin frets I can find on Amazon. They are about .037 tall to start. Not much meat to remove, but I still have to do the radius thing.

I can't remember if I posted these pics from another Taylor I did for the spook (I've done 4 jobs for him).
Note there is no tape inducing tension in the strings. Under the treble E, a penny is held upside down by string tension only. It's a nickel under the bass E. I figured gravity would pull them out....

https://imgur.com/aOdaWN4

https://imgur.com/PjEcmyL

https://imgur.com/XftcseF

https://imgur.com/oLzlb7Q

Most of the cats remove the truss rod cover after this mod. This is Kansas after all, and the least change in humidity or barometric pressure makes the action move a bit.


Thx Chris

S

Author:  SteveSmith [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

Sounds like the OP got the problem solved but I just did one today so I took a few photos to share. This was for an OM and the hi E needed to come down 1/2 of a 64th (about 0.0075") and the lo E needed to come down a whole 64th (about 0.015"). Difference on the saddle is twice the difference at the 12th fret so saddle needs to come down 0.015" on the hi E and 0.030" on the lo E. This is one way to do it.

1. I just use my calipers to scribe short lines on each end of the saddle, 0.015" on the hi E and 0.030" on the lo E. I use a pencil to highlight the line so it's easy to see.
Attachment:
saddle1.jpg


2. If the bottom of the saddle isn't square I just put it up against a wood block and square it. I do the sanding on an inexpensive granite surface plate with 120, 220 and 320 sandpaper on it.
Attachment:
saddle2.jpg


3. If the bottom of the saddle is already square I just do it by hand. In this case I want more off on the bass side so I put more pressure on that end. Check it often and that's all there is to it.
Attachment:
saddle3.jpg

Author:  SolR [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

SteveSmith wrote:
Sounds like the OP got the problem solved but I just did one today so I took a few photos to share. This was for an OM and the hi E needed to come down 1/2 of a 64th (about 0.0075") and the lo E needed to come down a whole 64th (about 0.015"). Difference on the saddle is twice the difference at the 12th fret so saddle needs to come down 0.015" on the hi E and 0.030" on the lo E. This is one way to do it.

1. I just use my calipers to scribe short lines on each end of the saddle, 0.015" on the hi E and 0.030" on the lo E. I use a pencil to highlight the line so it's easy to see.


2. If the bottom of the saddle isn't square I just put it up against a wood block and square it. I do the sanding on an inexpensive granite surface plate with 120, 220 and 320 sandpaper on it.


3. If the bottom of the saddle is already square I just do it by hand. In this case I want more off on the bass side so I put more pressure on that end. Check it often and that's all there is to it.


Thank you Steve,
Thats' pretty much how I did it, by hand with the line from hi to low...did not know about the block though, good one....another thing I thought I needed to do was to put tape on the bottom of the Hi E just in case. I really did not want to take off anything there and put more pressure on the lo side.

I waited 'till the wife went out and used the kitchen quartz counter as my flat base... ;)

Sol

Author:  SteveSmith [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

Quartz counter will work but she might get mad if you take a chunk to the shop :lol:

Author:  Hesh [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

OK lots of good stuff here from folks lending a hand, great to see.

We measure action at the 12th unfretted. Don't know if that's what you did.

I have a jazz player/customer who plays with the lowest workable action I've ever provided which is 2.5/64th" high e and 3/64th" low e both measured at the 12th. This player is a well known pro who has been on TV for over a decade and now is a professor of music. He has a very light touch and likes 12 - 52 flat wounds.

This is very low action and when we speak of action we speak of something that actually works. I can set action and even play it lower than this but it won't work everywhere on the neck nor will it work for all kinds of music.

Anyway taking down one side or the other or both of a saddle is done thousands of times a day by skilled (and unskilled :) ) folks to lower action.

Steve nice rig!!!

Author:  fumblefinger [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

I'm happy that there are those who can eyeball the things a saddle needs. I can't.
One of the nice things about the noted tool is the calibrated posts in the middle of the tool. These let you make 1/64" adjustments based on the action measurements you've taken. It's just simpler for us newbies.

(Here is the one I bought. https://www.ebay.com/itm/124813457131)

Author:  SteveSmith [ Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

I don’t know about others but I’m not eyeballing anything, everything is measured and marked. Nothing wrong with using the tool you described as long as it gets the job done for you.

Author:  Hesh [ Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: can one sand the bottom of a bone saddle on an angle?

fumblefinger wrote:
I'm happy that there are those who can eyeball the things a saddle needs. I can't.
One of the nice things about the noted tool is the calibrated posts in the middle of the tool. These let you make 1/64" adjustments based on the action measurements you've taken. It's just simpler for us newbies.

(Here is the one I bought. https://www.ebay.com/itm/124813457131)


Allen what challenges me is mechanical pencils.... The thickness of the line corresponding to the diameter of the lead to some degree and a poorly drawn line can be as thick as the 32nd that I want to sand to. It's hard enough seeing it at my age now without the line being sloppy and such.... idunno

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